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Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
822
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Posted - 2015.01.28 18:09:22 -
[1] - Quote
I like his idea and think it's the right thing to do.
+1 for nerfing the ishtar back to normal. +1 for making the risk averse 'dump and run' crowd all upset +1 for keeping the faith |
Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
828
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Posted - 2015.01.29 12:42:17 -
[2] - Quote
Iain Cariaba wrote:So, when you've successfully nerfed Ishtars into oblivion, are you going to then beg for nerfs to whatever takes its place as the OP hull of choice? And when that hull goes the way of the drake, are you going to protest the next FOTM hull? When does it stop?
I would really like an honest answer to these questions from OP.
Based on your phrasing "OP hull of choice" I would say the obvious answer is yes. It's only logical that if a ship is over powered and everyone is using it because it's over powered then for game balance any reasonable pilot would want it to be nerfed to where it is no longer over powered.
Drakes are currently awesome. The aren't the I WIN button you seem to want to pilot, but they are awesome. Send your newest drake pilot into a site as bait. The current drake isn't the 'obvious bait' it used to be, but it's still tanky enough to hold on until the support counter gank fleet arrives. Deploy drake, wiggle it around until the other folks just can't take it and engage. Noob in drake holds on and the tables are turned.... PVP happens. woot. It's much better than the old OP drake.
I guess it's perspective. If you want to strut around eve in your I WIN fleet of OP whatevers and FEEL AWESOME, then feel free to fly that way. If you want to fly around in a regular ship and actualy BE AWESOME then fly around like that. To each his own I say. |
Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
828
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Posted - 2015.01.29 13:03:29 -
[3] - Quote
Catherine Laartii wrote:Here's what I think:
Aside from a reduction in top speed don't change the ishtar itself, but nerf dps and tank on sentry drones. Set them up so they're more of an alpha strike weapon platform, and have their dps significantly reduces do heavy drones are top dog for dps. The balance problem with the ishtar exists more for the weapons systems it uses, and not necessarily for the ship itself.
The problem isn't that sentry drones are OP or too tanky. The problem is that ishtars dropping sentry drones and kiting out of harms way is OP. Fix the ishtar, don't nerf a perfectly fine sentry drone.
Take sentries away from the ishtar and it becomes a find HAC. It can still drop 5 heavies and wreak havoc on it's prey. With the heavies it will have to actually engage it's target, apply a point/scram and maybe a web and or painter to get the most use out of its heavy drones.
HAC - Heavy Assault Cruiser. They typically use high reists, small sig radius and acceptable damage. The ishtar doesn't. Taking away sentries will bring it back in line with the other heavy ASSAULT cruisers.
Or change it's assigned ship class to PKC - @@ssy Kiting Cruiser. At least call it what it is.
Take sentries away from ishtars and all will be right as rain.
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Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
830
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Posted - 2015.01.29 13:20:44 -
[4] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:afkalt wrote:baltec1 wrote:The ship isn't the problem its the sentries. Tracking and range bonused ones maybe. Without that they're not special. Nerf the ishtar and we move to the domi, nerf the domi and we still have the problem with sentry spewing carrier blobs. They are the cause of a good number of issues out there. Dealing with the sentries would save a good deal of time.
Here's an idea.
Take sentries away from the ishtar - it becomes a normal HAC.
Leave the dommi as is - it's a dommi - it was born to be a swiss army sentry knife.
Take away a capital ships ability to assign drones. Just get rid of it. Keep their awesome ability to assign fighters and fighter bombers - that's the point of the ship. Let them use all flavors of drones they currently can, just only allow assignment of fighters and fighter bombers.
That would take care of 2 major drone problems. Let that settle out. If eve then becomes Dommis Online, then have a look see at them. |
Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
830
|
Posted - 2015.01.29 14:10:46 -
[5] - Quote
Spugg Galdon wrote:It's been said before and I still think it's the best option:
Reduce Heavy Drone bandwidth to 20 M/bits/s
Reduce Offending ships drone bandwidth to 100 Mbits/s
Ishtar/VNI can only field 4 sentries then (20% dps nerf) but can still field 5 heavies if they want.
Myrm gets a brawling buff so may need a rebalance.
Remove Carrier ability to use sentry drones and introduce a new fighter type called "Lancer Fighters". Lancer fighters orbit the carrier very slowly and have Sniper weapons fitted. Would obviously struggle to track anything smaller than a BS but would leave the "Slow Cat" ability intact somewhat.
Your suggestions don't fix the underlying problems. The problem with the ishtar is that it drops sentries and runs out of combat range and still does damage. It can kill you, but you can't kill it is the problem. It can kill you 20% slower and you can't kill it doesn't fix the problem it just reduces incoming damage by 20%. When I say ishtar, I mean all cruises. Just make the sentry drone a BS and up thing.
You crap lance fighter ideas is crap too. Face it, archons assigning sentries is game breaking. Get rid of it. Don't half get rid of it w/ the 'lancer garbage fighter pacification drone'. The tactic sux, so take it away. Keep assignment of fighters and fighter bombers. Thats cool. Get rid of the ability to assign sentries and other normal drones.
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Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
831
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Posted - 2015.01.29 17:47:28 -
[6] - Quote
Zekora Rally wrote:Serendipity Lost wrote:Spugg Galdon wrote:It's been said before and I still think it's the best option:
Reduce Heavy Drone bandwidth to 20 M/bits/s
Reduce Offending ships drone bandwidth to 100 Mbits/s
Ishtar/VNI can only field 4 sentries then (20% dps nerf) but can still field 5 heavies if they want.
Myrm gets a brawling buff so may need a rebalance.
Remove Carrier ability to use sentry drones and introduce a new fighter type called "Lancer Fighters". Lancer fighters orbit the carrier very slowly and have Sniper weapons fitted. Would obviously struggle to track anything smaller than a BS but would leave the "Slow Cat" ability intact somewhat. Your suggestions don't fix the underlying problems. The problem with the ishtar is that it drops sentries and runs out of combat range and still does damage. It can kill you, but you can't kill it is the problem. It can kill you 20% slower and you can't kill it doesn't fix the problem it just reduces incoming damage by 20%. When I say ishtar, I mean all cruises. Just make the sentry drone a BS and up thing. You crap lance fighter ideas is crap too. Face it, archons assigning sentries is game breaking. Get rid of it. Don't half get rid of it w/ the 'lancer garbage fighter pacification drone'. The tactic sux, so take it away. Keep assignment of fighters and fighter bombers. Thats cool. Get rid of the ability to assign sentries and other normal drones. What exactly is stopping anyone from shooting the sentries? I remember having that discussion a couple days ago with my corp mates after a fight with a gang of 3 ishtars and a couple cerbs. We noticed the ishtars did the most damage after looking through the lossmails and questioned why we never shot their sentries down. Obviously, It will not be so easy especially with short range weapons and given the 6k ehp of sentries but I don't see why it's not done often. If the ishtars are running away then kill the sentries. It's so simple. On the topic of nerfs, a reduction of the ishtar drone bay size to 175 will ensure only a set of sentries or heavies can be carried at once. P.S. How is there anything wrong with assigning sentries when it's ok to assign fighters that are more likely to hit?
You need to get some more pvp under your belt. I would be more than happy to drop some ishtars on you and watch you simply kill off the sentries. I mean heck, w/ all the pvp folks in eve, how could we all have missed this? Now that you 'simply kill all the sentries' counter is out, I doubt folks will bother flying them any more. You may have just shut down OP ishtar for good.
I'm going to put "If the ishtars are running away, then kill the sentries. It's so simple" in Baltec1's bio.
On a serious note - there are a lot of counters to the ishtar. There really isn't a good one. That's why they are OP and currently flown by every risk averse 'pvp hero' in eve. |
Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
836
|
Posted - 2015.01.30 13:37:17 -
[7] - Quote
Aplysia Vejun wrote:If its 100vs100: quite some Nomen will be killed. 20vs20: 3-5 dead omen until catching. 1 vs 1: omen players wins easily. 2400m/s? Sure, with links and overheating( but then you have less dmg)
The only problem is in BIG groups. Everything else is ok.
It's NOT an only in big groups problem. Everything else isn't ok. |
Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
836
|
Posted - 2015.01.30 17:00:12 -
[8] - Quote
Aiyshimin wrote:Spugg Galdon wrote:It's been said before and I still think it's the best option:
Reduce Heavy Drone bandwidth to 20 M/bits/s
Reduce Offending ships drone bandwidth to 100 Mbits/s
Ishtar/VNI can only field 4 sentries then (20% dps nerf) but can still field 5 heavies if they want.
Myrm gets a brawling buff so may need a rebalance.
Remove Carrier ability to use sentry drones and introduce a new fighter type called "Lancer Fighters". Lancer fighters orbit the carrier very slowly and have Sniper weapons fitted. Would obviously struggle to track anything smaller than a BS but would leave the "Slow Cat" ability intact somewhat. This is the good solution, if we'd somehow reach the conclusion that there is a problem. However, this "Ishtar issue" is nothing more than another installment in the never-ending series of "what the other guy is flying is always OP, CCP hjalp".
So when the show the video of the ishtar being pried from a cold dead hand.... that will be you hand. I can't wait.
Lancer Fighters are dumb - please stop. It's meeting a bad thing (carriers assigning sentries) half way. Slow Cat is a crappy boring tactic. It's success lies in it's server chocking abilities. Providing a half bad Lancer in lieu of a full bad sentry doesn't adress choking out the server. I get what you are trying to do, but it doesn't address a large part of the probelm. My 200 archons load grid and deploy Lancers or Sentries. Now the bad guys land and die before the load grid to lancers or sentries.
The drones would have different profiles / abilities / stats, but to the guy that jumps into the fight second - finally loading grid to find your self in your noob system in a new clone wouldn't feel all that different. He won't even know until the server coughs out his loss mail 4 hours after the fight is over. "Oh, look.... it was 600 Lancers that popped me before I loaded the grid"
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Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
836
|
Posted - 2015.01.30 18:37:14 -
[9] - Quote
Aiyshimin wrote:Phaade wrote: No.
How can you not see how broken Ishtars are? It's been dissected and explained numerous times. You obviously don't PvP...or PvE as it's the go to ship for that as well.
I really believe some people simply cannot grasp the concept of balance.
This is exactly what I meant. You don't provide a single argument why it would be "op" in your opinion. You simply parrot other forum clowns, and in your cluelesness you start to believe in it if it's repeated enough. You obviously don't PVP or PVE, or even log in, if all you see is Ishtars.
I'll purchase your beloved ishtar for a reasonable price post nerf. I'm sure if they remove it's riskaversyness you'll be more than willing to unload it. If it's a pve ishtar.... I'm only intersted in DED space fit ishtars.
I've reviewed your comments and "However, this "Ishtar issue" is nothing more than another installment in the never-ending series of "what the other guy is flying is always OP, CCP hjalp" seems to be your most 'valid' arguement for a non nerf. Stop throwing stones. |
Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
842
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Posted - 2015.02.03 13:28:49 -
[10] - Quote
Anhenka wrote:Pravius wrote: i think thats the point isnt it..... its a cruiser hull that brings battleship dps to the field without all the drawbacks of being a battleship...
and btw if they implement these changes it still will be able to with orgre 2 but will be forced to fight and closer ranges and carry differnt types of drones than just flights of sentry drones
Nobody uses heavies, because they are trash. If you were to remove sentries, still, nobody would use heavies in 99% of PvP, barring very rare brawling setups like Blasterthrons, Armageddons, or Rattlesnakes. Please note that none of these are cruiser hulls. A small, fragile, kiting ship that can only use heavies or other non sentry drones is thus, also trash. Nobody would be forced to do anything with Ishtars, because just about everything would be better than them. I would pick a T1 fit hurricane over a t2 Ogre wielding Ishtar. Heavies are just that bad.
Heavies work great. You just have to be bold enough to tackle (that would be web and scram if you are unfamiliar with the concept) your opponent. If you only like small fragile kiting ships, the yeah sure heavies suck.
Try developing a pvp strategy that doesn't have running away in one of the first 3 steps of the plan.
Ishtar is a HAC. It's got great resists and a small sig radius. Try an AB, web, scarm and some blasters. That plus heavy drones and it's a very high dps brawler. It can fit in w/ the other armor hacs. ( "ARMOR HACS..... ARMOR HACS" do you guys remember that video??)
Heavies aren't bad. They just don't work w/ risk averse kiting setups. |
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Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
842
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Posted - 2015.02.03 13:59:30 -
[11] - Quote
Deacon Abox wrote:Serendipity Lost wrote: Heavies aren't bad. They just don't work w/ risk averse kiting setups. Your commentary on kiting v brawling and tackling is ok, but it does not make heavies good. It is not the damage of heavies that is lacking. It is the speed and their travel time between targets. This is why Heavy Drones suck. BSs suck now for the same reason. The warp speed and align time of BSs, and the speed and agility of heavy drones are both too cumbersome. CCP needs to unnerf these. Then there might be more BS and heavy drone use. Until then sentries and an agile cruiser are just way better to use in about any situation.
If you scram and web your target then they are fine.
I'm a wh gal, so I only do the small gang stuff. When guys scale the fleet to 100+ then I'll agree that heavies become impractical, but then again when you get to 100+ in fleet, it's about the alpha. If you want 100+ pilot sentry gang... there is the dommi or other BS sentry platforms some fitting genious can come up with.
I think the biggest contributor to the OP in the ishtar is that it drops sentries that have a high alpha strike AND then run. They are fast and can (as a group) drop flights in spread out locations. You really can't take mobility away from a HAC - that's kind of their thing. You can take away sentries. I think that strategy would bring them in line with the other HACs and bring them in line with what a HAC is supposed to do.
The whole 'mess with the band width' just won't adress the high alpha kiting HAC problem. You just have 80% damage output with all the same issues. Less damage doesn't fix the problem.
Look, there is a crowd out there that just aren't comfy risking their ships. They have to kite. That's fine. The trade off for flying a kiting ship is reduced damage because your are at range (fall off, heavies/hams, cruise/torps). The ishtar kites with close up brawler damage. That's the borked part of it. That's what needs fixed. Dropping 1 less sentry won't deal with the problem.
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Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
844
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Posted - 2015.02.05 15:50:47 -
[12] - Quote
Solj RichPopolous wrote:Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:Raeding up on the circadian seekers stuff I saw people mention that their drones were going idle whilst in combat and assigned on a target. There may be new modules on the way that will affect drones I think... (Insert scientific name dealing with radio communication disruption) scrambling burst. Hi slot utility module. When activated has a chance of making drones lose their wireless connection to the controlling ship. Host would need to initiate a reconnect to lost drones which would then go through a recalibration period and reconnect to host ship after an arbitrary amount of time. Work out the details to make it balanced.
So your fix idea is to make me give up a high slot on my ship because the ishtar is borked?
I'll help you with the details to balance your idea. NO |
Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
844
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Posted - 2015.02.05 17:08:36 -
[13] - Quote
Nolak Ataru wrote:Serendipity Lost wrote:Solj RichPopolous wrote:Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:Raeding up on the circadian seekers stuff I saw people mention that their drones were going idle whilst in combat and assigned on a target. There may be new modules on the way that will affect drones I think... (Insert scientific name dealing with radio communication disruption) scrambling burst. Hi slot utility module. When activated has a chance of making drones lose their wireless connection to the controlling ship. Host would need to initiate a reconnect to lost drones which would then go through a recalibration period and reconnect to host ship after an arbitrary amount of time. Work out the details to make it balanced. So your fix idea is to make me give up a high slot on my ship because the ishtar is borked? I'll help you with the details to balance your idea. NO Or you could, ya know, try out other ships to counter the Ishtar instead of the current doctrine....
I'm getting the vibe that you're a subpar pilot making a living in an OP ship. To preserver you subpar but OP lifestyle you're trying to gimp any opposition by taking a utility high slot away from them.
I think it would be more efficient for you to lobby for an additional ishtar super power. * 20% reduction in MWD cap penalty per level of gallente frigate. * role bonus: No stacking penalty for drone damage amplifiers. * 10% reduction in sig radius per level of gallente industrial. * 30% increased afterburner speed boost per level of gallente cruiser.
I think all of these options should be considered for the ishtar. Any reasonable player should be able to come up w/ a plausible counter to these addtional traits. To be balanced I would say you should only add 2 of the above instead of all four.
Just take sentries away from cruisers and be done w/ it. |
Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
844
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Posted - 2015.02.05 17:57:54 -
[14] - Quote
I think a lot of the folks saying the ishtar is OP have been playing the game long enough to know and understand the difference between FOTM and OP. I'm betting you know the difference too.
Armor Hacs were FOTM not OP. Pipe bombing is FOTM not OP.
AFK cloaking - valid game mechanic.
Dram of old - OP (current is fine) current ishtar - OP
Worm - really strong performer w/ many valid counters - NOT OP
Archon sentry fleets - not really OP, but a server crushing crap mechanic
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Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
844
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Posted - 2015.02.05 19:30:05 -
[15] - Quote
We can argue that back and forth all day and prove nothing to each other. I'll put it this way.
Current Ishtar - @@ssy Assault Cruiser - flown by risk averse tools that prefer to drop drones and flee the scene of combat. It's the only ship in the game that can drop BS damage on the field and leave the scene while still doing BS damage. It's the only HAC that does close range high damage (think ham/blaster/autocannon/pulse) without being close range. It can do all of this while being fast and agile with high resists and a low sig radius.
It has none of the current tradeoffs that any other close range high damage ship does.
I'll agree, it's NOT OP it's BROKEN. I honestly can't believe I'm debating with you. The facts are so clear to so many (read up for hours).
In short (and this is possible) your opinion is just plain wrong. You say no one has found a valid counter yet, well, there are a lot of smart folks playing the game and a lot of them are really really good at fittings and doctrines. You saying no one has found the counter pretty much proves my point and disproves yours.
Yeah, let that sink in..... either all of eve just went prompt stupid OR you are wrong. |
Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
847
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Posted - 2015.02.06 14:55:16 -
[16] - Quote
Nolak Ataru wrote:And then sentry nano snakes would be the new thing, and you'd be back here in a month complaining that they're OP and broken and CCP should nerf them because you can't 1-volley them with your megathrons and apocs even with a sig radius the size of a small moon...
After reading back on all your posts specifically. There isn't a lot of constructive anything. You're just an angy dude. Try putting some sugar and maybe even some heavy cream in your coffee, or maybe get some decaf. Your posts are 83.267% rage, 15.648% anti player input to game changes, and the rest is just "don't change nuttin" rhetoric.
Needed changes: * sugar in your coffee * decaf * buckwheat honey in your tea * a touch of cinnamon on top of your pancake syrup
Try these and see if the sun shines just a little bit brighter on your day.
Taking sentries from Sub BS hulls will do wonders for the game. (Collateral issue) Allowing capitals to ONLY assign fighters/fighter bombers will do wonders for the game. Leaving the Dommi as a big, slow sentry wielding monster will be fine. It's BS speed provides a multitude of counters to that doctrine. These few tweeks will increase enjoyment by a lot. |
Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
848
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Posted - 2015.02.06 15:47:47 -
[17] - Quote
Nolak Ataru wrote:Today I Learned: Advocating for sensible change instead of constant whining to mommy = angry.
If you take sentries from sub-BS ships like Ishtars and Vexors, you'd better be willing to give them a buff to their other types of drones, and you'd better believe that they will swap instantly to those types. Gilas + Hammerheads already do 800+ DPS and can push 100k EHP, imagine if that becomes more mainstream.
The difference is you can smart bomb non sentry drones when they are putting damage on you. This is what some of us call a reasonable counter. They have to travel from one intended target to the next, so if you're piloting your ship in an intelligent manner - it actually means something. If they want to be able to apply heavy drone damage they will have to actually engage their targets with a web to allow the heavies to get on them.
What I learned: you put derogatory terms on anyone who doesn't agree with you (whiner and such). I give good solutions (sugar, buckwheat honey, cinnamon and such)
I'll admit.... I did call you angry, but I don't feel as though I'm out on a limb so to speak w/ that conclusion.
Get a bag of skittles..... taste the rainbow. |
Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
850
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Posted - 2015.02.06 18:04:24 -
[18] - Quote
Syn Shi wrote:Nolak Ataru wrote:Today I Learned: Advocating for sensible change instead of constant whining to mommy = angry.
If you take sentries from sub-BS ships like Ishtars and Vexors, you'd better be willing to give them a buff to their other types of drones, and you'd better believe that they will swap instantly to those types. Gilas + Hammerheads already do 800+ DPS and can push 100k EHP, imagine if that becomes more mainstream. If the Ishtar is OP and needs a nerf I fully expect the Worm and Gila to get the same treatment.
Agreed, we'll prevent both of these ships from using sentries because they are not BS. (It's good to have another voice on my side) |
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